Why did Hillary lose the Candidacy?

[scarpetta]

Here's the link to a fascinating piece of analysis from the New York Times as to why Hillary Clinton lost the Democratic candidacy.
warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/woman-in-charge-women-who-charge/
I encourage you click on the "this incredible montage" link within the article and watch the YouTube montage of TV coverage. It may be talking about the USA but these kinds of attitudes are also found in NZ and Australia (and elsewhere!). Just remember / read / listen to some of the comments made about Helen Clark and Julia Gillard!

Be really interested to hear your thoughts on this....

[scarpetta]

I keep thinking of how much critcism Helen Clark gets...less often about her policies..as you would expect...and most often about her appeaance, gender, sexuality....It makes me sick to my stomach...Reading the above article and montage link was a good exercise for me...hopefully for you too.....its good to be aware of this stuff.....

[Lux]

Its quite a sad reflection really, that some women see strong women as a threat rather than an ally in the sisterhood. And would revert to shallow comments regarding another woman's appearance rather than see the mind workings of a strong woman.

In regard to Hilary and Obama though, I think America's black population is a lot stronger than is currently portrayed and that Obama has some very influentual supporters.

Bill Clinton was seen as fairly weak in the end, and the scandal that followed him wouldn't have done Hilary much good, she should have dumped him a long time ago. The fact that she stood by him and supported his unfaithful ass could have been her downfall...just my opinion.

Theres also the fact that Obama will go up against old time America now, the chauvinists have done their work now its time to get rid of the black fellow! Strategic move? May be.

I would like to think even though sexism appears to be prevalent in the trenches during political battles that many other factors come into play.

[sparrow]

Lux: I think this is misogyny at its scariest i.e. that people would rather see a black man elected than a woman. I hope now that Obama has got the nod he will win the Presidency, but he might not.

[scarpetta]

Jun 22, 2008 0:53:30 GMT 12 sparrow said:

Lux: I think this is misogyny at its scariest i.e. that people would rather see a black man elected than a woman. I hope now that Obama has got the nod he will win the Presidency, but he might not.

Totally agree with you sparrow and there are so many read worthy comments under the article....This was one....

"You and Joan Walsh of Salon are the only two voices I have found on this subject that reflect my own views. Thank you for this article.

Now, what can we DO about it?

I have been so shocked at Hillary’s treatment and the “zeitgeist” I see on TV and the net.

I’m especially saddened by the anti-woman anti-Hillary commentary of many of the women on TV!

From the silence following the “Iron My Shirt” and “Marry Me” outbursts in NH to yesterday when Andrea Mitchell worried aloud that Barack may look “henpecked” by Hillary and her followers, I have been wondering - Who are these people and where do these attitudes come from? Women like Andrea, Dowd, Borger, Ifill, and others disappoint me…and I wonder…do they live in the real world?

At an Obama event in LA, Oprah asserted - with Michelle Obama, Caroline Kennedy and Maria Shriver onstage - that we are post-feminist now, and to prove it - Oprah told the crowd - we didn’t have to vote for Hillary, because we had succeeded - we were liberated and to prove it we could move past the women’s movement…we could be done with all that sisterhood stuff and be guilt-free to vote for Obama instead of Hillary! Now, I never thought all women should or would vote for Hillary, but Oprah’s post-feminist “logic” showed that she is out of touch! Oprah and other elites may not experience the real harm that sexist dsicrimination imposes on millions of women in their everyday lives, but I can tell you that I witness sexism in my business EVERY day and there is ample evidence that women are STILL the “niggers of the world”, as Yoko Ono and John Lenno wrote 36 years ago! We are certainly not beyond the need for all that sisterhood stuff yet.

But, even though I am very familiar with sexism in the workplace and society, I have been stunned by its pervasiveness in the public square during this campaign…the loudness of it, the crudeness of it, the hatefulness…and the lack of righteous indignation and vocal resistance to it.

Where are the women who will speak up in public and not feel the need to apologize for defending, protecting and advocating for respect for other women? Where are the men who respect women??? Why don’t they speak out?

I yell at the TV, and I want to write letters to every editor and politician…but it would be a full-time job (I avoid even going to the blogs anymore because they are so-o-o-o hate-filled)!

I don’t understand how we got to this place in our public discourse, nor do I understand the underlying attitudes, but I’ll wait for someone else to try to explain the root causes. Meanwhile, I’ll take the behaviorist’s approach. I DON’T want to hear it, so I will speak out whenever I can!

What I really want to know is this - - what are we ALL going to DO about it together?

For our mothers, for our daughters, for ourselves and the betterment of society, we must DO something!

Obama’s acceptance speech is scheduled for the anniversary of a great civil rights event years ago. And, many have remarked on the serendipity.

Is it too audacious to hope that this political year can also end with some grand act of grace that signals the end of tolerance of sexism toward women?

— Posted by Mary Sweeney "

[flissnz]

I am compromised as I would like to see a woman at the helm, but black empowerment is a huge thing too.

[sparrow]

Me too, Fliss. I think both candidates (Hillary and Obama) offer a lot. I am, however, concerned with what Scarps addresses here. There was quite a strong anti-woman bent which saw Hillary characterised as old, Machiavellian, or a woman that might potential cuckold the country. She was the most experienced candidate and I think she probably had a better chance of defeating McCain in the general election.

Similarly, both candidates symbolise something - whether it is about race or gender - which is what made the democratic nomination so interesting. It is historic, but I think electing either of them on race or gender issues alone - as the symbolic saviours of American society - is probably a misnomer. It seems odd that the only "super-power" in the world is addressing these issues now.

The real issues, however, of how race and gender affect people's life chances are still there and won't go away with the election of a symbolic leader. It is, however, a start. In the UK, women are paid 19,000 pounds less than men doing the same job. I haven't gone through NZ's equivalent stats yet, but I believe NZ women are paid around $10,000 less than their male counterparts for doing the same job. Maori men are paid less than their white counterparts - doing the same job and Maori women are paid less than both their white female counterparts and Maori male counterparts, and white male counterparts.

The NZ stats I saw some years ago read this way even though we had a female Prime Minister, Governor General etc, and a high proportion of Maori in Parliament. It is something interesting to consider anyway.

[misilon]

Im not that interested in the political scene but Ive enjoyed this read very much its very informative ,..Id never pick up the news paper and read about it,.. thanks guys

[kokonutwoman]

Thanks from me too, however what about double jeopardy, black/brown woman at the helm. Women of colour have always had to fight their way to the top and have had to be better than their own counterparts. 13 years ago I presented a paper of African American Feminism I closed it with "Did African American women get were they are at the expense of Native American Women?" I applied the same question to Pakeha women and Maori. Although gender is a biggie in terms of equal employment opportunities or even opportunities itself the reality is that true equality will never be achieved in my time and I've been in the game for nearly 35 years.

Just my thoughts.

[sparrow]

Jun 22, 2008 15:00:36 GMT 12 kokonutwoman said:

Thanks from me too, however what about double jeopardy, black/brown woman at the helm. Women of colour have always had to fight their way to the top and have had to be better than their own counterparts. 13 years ago I presented a paper of African American Feminism I closed it with "Did African American women get were they are at the expense of Native American Women?" I applied the same question to Pakeha women and Maori. Although gender is a biggie in terms of equal employment opportunities or even opportunities itself the reality is that true equality will never be achieved in my time and I've been in the game for nearly 35 years.

Just my thoughts.

It can be double jeopardy, Koko, but it also depends on "who" the woman is. If you have a look at Condaleeza Rice, her ethnicity and gender seems to have been transcended by her conservative politics. She has been accused (so was C.o.l.i.n Powell) of not really being "black" because she was a conservative. I thought that was an interesting study in the politics of race/ethnicity, gender and political affiliation.

I think one of the most interesting studies is around the issue of "protection" for women - especially indigenous women and women of colour in society. Some of the readings are disturbing (especially for Native American Women and Native Canadian women). The issue of protection can also be applied in NZ for Maori women and you will find there is little, and most matters are constructed within an ethno-socio-cultural framework for analysis. Gender gets left out of it, but if you look at the actual social living conditions of Maori women it becomes apparent that attention - as a subset of a population - needs to be paid here. Currently Maori women and children inhabit the lowest social strata in New Zealand society, but because most analysis is conducted between groups, I think there is a need to look at what happens within groups too.

There has been some discussion that Rice might, in fact, go on someone's ticket for the Presidential campaign. It might not be for this election coming up, but it might be at some stage. I think that would be an interesting show to watch when that happens. Then we could see whether double jeopardy applies - or whether an individual's conservative type politics is given priority in the media analysis. I don't think it will, but Rice would probably be characterised as the right type of black woman (in much the same way as Georgina Te Heu Heu is here because she has hitched her sail to the Tories).

My Sunday views ... ;D

[scarpetta]

This has turned out to be a really interesting thread...
Your point about Condaleeza Rice got our house talking Sparrow. So nice to have open and reasoned discussion.
Thanks.

[blackpearl]

Something about hilary and helen that irritates me is their waste of taxpayer money. Those 2 women spend a lot of time misleading, lying, rumormongering, and outright shitestirring.
They look like kids trying to be the head bully at a primary school and as adults it is infuriating to see such squabbilish behaviour.
That is what will be labours downfall this year. People are sick of it.
That was hillarys downfall this year also. She got busted because of a youtube clip clearly showing she was never in harms way as she claimed on a visit to Iraq. People dont like being made fools of.

[sparrow]

I think Hillary's main downfall was her lack of focus on Iraq. She should have made more of it and she didn't hammer away on the issue. America is sick of the war. Obama focused on that and characterised it around change.

I think the subject of this thread is an interesting one though. The comments about Hillary (like Helen) have focused on their looks, their age and seem to be underpinned by constructivist views about women's nature.

Hillary's economy with the truth about the time she spent in Iraq is equal, if not more benign, than Obama's autobiography on being a "black" student at a prestigious high school where he suffered racism. I'm sure he did, but he has had fellow students and teachers say that was news to them. Quite often it is a way to minimise uncomfortable issues - like racism and sexism (in Hillary's case) - i.e. to offer denial to a person's lived experience, but it is something Obama could have been hammered on. He wasn't.

Helen is probably the subject of another thread, but she has been attacked on similar issues as Hillary. Labour is looking rather tired at the moment and I doubt they will win the next election. It will be closer though than people think, but (as said on another thread), I'm picking National will win it. I don't think National will be able to govern alone though. Could be wrong here, but when push comes to shove - Labourites won't vote for National. The disillusioned will go to smaller parties to make their protest votes.

[kokonutwoman]

Nice Sunday thought Sparrow and agree with your last post.

[Misstique]

Great thread - haven't got time right now for an indepth "this is my opinion" .... but will follow up at a later date. Enjoyed reading!

[lolly]

time of “gloating, unshackled sexism of the ugliest kind.”..."she asked for it."

Is it just my imagination but have all those men in the monologue partly balding with fat faces and small mouths.... thats aside from the obvious yehud who is doing his best to look like a bald eagle.I would aslo suggest they have small balls two inch penises nad suffer from severe inferiority complexes.
Honestly if i was an American and a woman i would be ashamed of the country I was living in.
The monologue goes to show that men have never got over their fear of strong women.
They discussed everything but her politics, they made the most disgusting patronising....no lets call it for what it is..... that the monologue is a brilliant example of hate speech at its finest.
Thanks Scarps for bringing this to our attention, i had not given this side of her campaign anythingt at all.And thought personaly i do notlike the politics she stands for she is a gutsy determined woman.
I would think most of the women who inhabit this place are strong women.WE take no prisoners, we say what we think, and not what others would like us to say.

[lolly]

The other world I inhabit is a strongly patriachal dominated society.I am an anthema to alot of people,a freak to some, but the most suprising thing of all is the women who fear me. Honestly sometimes I find I am constantly fighting the world.and its the women who are the worse, not all just a small nunber, but my god they are vicious.I am accused of being a drunkard and a whore and the stories of my sex life...well it quite amazes me really it does.Mind you I should be flattered really....These sad ass people....think i am having affairs with some devastatingly gorgeous men.HELLO,I am married,HELLO I am 48 constanly sick for various reasons and certainly do not have the energy for one affair let alone a dozen or two.Then there is the old and fat scenario......yeah well one day they to well get old.THe Drinking aspect cracks me up.........i have only had about a dozen drinks 15 years and none in the past 6.
But for all that, I love being a strong woman, and I am getting even stronger learning not To let the remarks hurt.Laugh in the face of adversity perhaps Hillary should of done that a bit more.
AS miusis has already found out... the haters cannot handle laughter, they cannot handle one enjoying oneself .So the more happier one is the better.Hilary should of just turned around to those weak commentators poked out her tonuge and said dont rain on my parade.

[scarpetta]

I found the following article printed in Time magazine in 1984. I ask you "whats changed?"

Monday, Dec. 31, 1984
"Sexism Is Alive"

Her topic was sexism in politics, and it was appropriate for the audience that had invited her to speak on the subject: the Women's Forum, a group of New York City's most influential women in business and politics. United Nations Ambassador Jeane Kirkpatrick claimed that "sexism is alive in the U.N in the U.S. Government... in American politics." As evidence she noted the reported comments of unnamed White House critics who had contended that she was "too temperamental to occupy a higher office." That, she argued, was a "classical sexist charge." She complained that she has been described as "schoolmarmish" and "confrontational," and that while former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger was often referred to as "Dr. Kissinger," she is usually called "Mrs. Kirkpatrick," despite her Ph.D. in political science.

The Ambassador mentioned only one of her antagonists by name: "I am sure Alexander Haig thought he was going to wipe me out in the first nine months," she said of the former Secretary of State. "He didn't." Her audience applauded. She called foreign policy a "particularly male bastion" and claimed that "there are lots of resistances still to young women in our diplomatic service."

The subject was not a new one for Kirkpatrick, who told TIME editors at a meeting in Dallas during the Republican National Convention that she sympathized with Geraldine Ferraro in her pioneering role as the first woman vice-presidential candidate. While political opportunities for women are opening, she continued, "it is a very harsh game, and I do not think women want whatever it is at the end of that particular rainbow badly enough to pursue it."

However valid her complaint might be, the timing of Kirkpatrick's latest protest raised questions about her motive. She has revealed her desire to leave her U.N. post and to find a position closer to the power centers in Washington. But last month, President Reagan appeared to end her hopes with the assertion that he did not see any available foreign policy position in his Administration that would be "worthy of her."

Replying to Kirkpatrick's assertions, one of the Ambassador's White House critics suggested last week that it is her personality, not her gender, that is at fault. Some women, he added, "suffer because they are cantankerous." Clearly, the feuding and the possible sexism have not ended.
Find this article at:
www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,951441,00.html

[lolly]

Men are afraid of any women who has clawed hr way to the top .
Bcause in doing so has has had to work ten times as hard as any man.
and also take ten times as much abuse.....
So anywoman who gets to the top has clawed her way there.....
This makes mn very afraid and so they should be

[misilon]

I watched hillary clinton give her long long step down speech this morning on bbc news osama barruch was sitting alongside her ,...giving him her all in support of him

I would never have bothered to watch it if not for this thread


I kinda giggled at so many of the hopes and dreams and aspiration she had outlined to the people,.. had wonderful experiences to tell,..but anyone with an ounce of sense knows that all of those promises and dreams are just that ,.....dreams !! no matter who promises them

Im not much for being able to see behind the words spoken by a politician

But I know this much

in view of the way this world is obviously heading no man on earth is going to be able to save it from the collision course it is heading towards,... and theyre not gonna like who theyre gonna collide with !!!!! JMTCW



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[buck]

such a close event, in such a close competion little things matter, not that eather of the partciptemts new at the time. Hilary in the begining choose not to compete in some of the small states with few delegates to win. And these few states would probily go republican in the general election anyway. Well i bet she regrets this now. In all these cases thedelegateswent to Obama for basicaly just showing up. I think Hillary was a little to confident in the begining of the process. I bet she is kicking herself for such a simple stragic screw up.

[maire]

Great thread and I'm only sorry I didn't read it from when it first started.
Thanks too Buck for your "on the site", sort of, views.
I don't think I could stand the American version of the campaign trail, here in NZ.
The relatively short one we have, is quite long and nasty enough.