naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Dec 30, 2008 18:57:08 GMT 12
This time it's in Palestine, by the Israeli government, backed by US aid.
Somebody tell me how 4 days of random bombing will solve the problems of the region.
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Post by bingbong on Dec 30, 2008 22:43:27 GMT 12
Oh dear, I think you forgot a few things the precursor, eh, [conveniently forgotten and inbuilt amnesia] there have been no international demonstrations against Hamas in the West, (not even when they kill women who are not veiled, certainly not when their rocket attacks traumatized women, children, and the elderly in southern Israel), no UN resolutions, no witheringly scornful European speeches against the anti-Israel rocket attacks or against the Palestinian-on-Palestinian violence within Gaza. Watch out for anti Semitism, it can lurk, creep out in unsuspecting ways and appear as reasonable debate and pop up on message boards as well of course never intentional.
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Dec 30, 2008 23:12:01 GMT 12
I do sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that I am an anti-Semite simply because I oppose state-sanctioned terrorism.
You skipped over the question, so I'll ask it again.
Somebody tell me how 4 days of random bombing will solve the problems of the region.
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Post by bingbong on Dec 31, 2008 0:35:54 GMT 12
re your response Naki "I do sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that I am an anti-Semite simply because I oppose state-sanctioned terrorism." and "Somebody tell me how 4 days of random bombing will solve the problems of the region."
Well the prior rocket attacks over many days into Israel by Palestinians is hardly friendly fire or a best wishes gesture over the holiday period!! AND the response to the attacks by Israel is called self-defence and the Palestinians [some] who cant solve constructively any issues they may have then wear the consequences of their violence. A bit uncomfortable when the one attacked can really fight back.
P.S the Palestinians state sanctioned terrorism is sponsored by Iran. You need to put your terrorism in the right basket!
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Dec 31, 2008 20:39:27 GMT 12
So....Hamas terrorism, sponsored by Iran = bad
Israeli terrorism, sponsored by USA = self defence........
Complete double standard.
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Post by cailz on Jan 2, 2009 10:45:43 GMT 12
Naki, what do you think about Hamas hiding out and bombing from palestinian civilian bases? How about these terrorists remove their masks/camaflouge garb when they broadcast video footage of themselves to the rest of the world and not be the cowards they really are?  |
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 3, 2009 5:37:47 GMT 12
Ifeel sorry for the 17 Israelis killed in rocket attackes launched from Gaza in the last 7 years....
But not as sorry as I do for the hundreds who have been slaughtered these last few days by American-backed extremists.
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Post by cailz on Jan 4, 2009 14:56:17 GMT 12
So....Hamas terrorism, sponsored by Iran = bad Israeli terrorism, sponsored by USA = self defence........ Complete double standard. Hey Naki, Hamas are the protaganists and instigators, they aren't interested in peace. Christmas day they launched 80-90 rockets in to Israel, and this after they signed the peace treaty. Why are the neighbouring arab countries not condemning Israel? Because they know that Israel is defending themselves against Hamas and only doing what any other country would do under the same circumstances.  |
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 4, 2009 15:31:41 GMT 12
So....Hamas terrorism, sponsored by Iran = bad Israeli terrorism, sponsored by USA = self defence........ Complete double standard. Hey Naki, Hamas are the protaganists and instigators, Sorry, but this is the 'big lie' used to justify all of Israel's excesses. The israelis have demolished thousands of homes, occupied land illegaly, incarcerated thousands of Palestinians without trial and generally acted like complete assholes since the United Nations gifted them large chunks of other people's land. The state of Israel exists only because the UN stole land from other nations. The Israeli position that they are 'God's chosen ones' and that 'God gave them this land' is totally illogical, and without any scientific merit. With the greatest of respect cailz, if I came to your place, bulldozed your house, herded your family to a scrubby patch of desert at the bottom of the garden, and claimed that it was ok 'because God said so', I'd be rightly seen as the instigator and you'd be well within your rights to set the police on me. |
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Post by bingbong on Jan 5, 2009 20:35:48 GMT 12
Naki, you are stuck in an ideological brain lock it appears. NOTE "Hamas rocket fire into southern Israel persisted Monday [today] despite a now 10-day" self defence campaign " Clearly Hamas has no concern for its own people only its self-absorbed and destructive ways. I am not unconvinced there isn't and anti Semitic in the mist not so lurking here, I wonder who?  !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 6, 2009 8:16:05 GMT 12
So...you believe that Israel is justified in attacking Gaza again? Clearly, the Israelis have no conscience when it comes to murdering civilians either!
It's not anti-Semetism to oppose excesive and indiscriminate use off force, but it is damned cowardly to hide behind accusations of anti-Semitism when somebody holds up a spade in front of you and calls it a spade.
The Israelis are guilty of terrorism, and on a larger scale than Hamas.
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 6, 2009 8:24:52 GMT 12
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Post by cailz on Jan 6, 2009 14:44:03 GMT 12
Naki, the only cowards I see are Hamas and the way they go about using their own people as shields while they carry out their murderous bombings. You have your warped views on how the Arabs operate and you are entitled to them. However, I will never agree with you on this subject. |
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Post by sparrow on Jan 6, 2009 15:10:17 GMT 12
I have to say that my sympathies lie more with the Palestinians on this issue. I don't believe Israel's position that Hamas are using people as live shields. I might do if it wasn't Israel denying the right to journalists and world media organisations in reporting events from over there, but right now ... we only have the Israeli view on it and I don't particularly trust it. It strikes me as less than coincidental and more by design that Israel has upped the anti in the space between Obama taking and Bush leaving office.
In saying that, neither side are angels in the conflict and it is going to have ramifications for us all.
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 6, 2009 16:08:32 GMT 12
You have your warped views on how the Arabs operate and you are entitled to them. However, I will never agree with you on this subject. I don't recall asking anyone to agree with me. All I ask is that if you disagree with my considered opinion on any subject, you offer a considered opinion of your own in countrerpoint. calling me warped or racist does not go any distance towards challenging the facts. The fact at this stage is that civilians are dying in large numbers at the hands of invading Israelis. |
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Post by cailz on Jan 6, 2009 17:45:43 GMT 12
The reason Israel are not letting journalists access now is because the media broadcasts information that the Palestinians use against them. This has always been done in the past, now Israel is doing the opposite so that Hamas are kept in the dark and cannot act upon such info.
I agree Sparrow, nobody wins in a war, there are always casualties and horrors which could have been avoided, especially if Hamas had kept their end of the bargain when they signed the peace treaty.
All Israel wants is to live in peace, but what do you expect them to do? Sit back and take it on the chin and not protect their people against the cowardly onslaught by the Palestinians? I'm sorry, but Hamas is excellent at portraying themselves as victims and they are not above using their own people to get what they want.
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Post by toerag on Jan 6, 2009 17:55:36 GMT 12
Wrong thread but appropriate me thinks
War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh
War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all
War! huh good God
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?
Ohhh? War! I despise
Because it means destruction?
Of innocent lives
War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives
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Post by sparrow on Jan 6, 2009 19:48:57 GMT 12
The reason Israel are not letting journalists access now is because the media broadcasts information that the Palestinians use against them. This has always been done in the past, now Israel is doing the opposite so that Hamas are kept in the dark and cannot act upon such info. I agree Sparrow, nobody wins in a war, there are always casualties and horrors which could have been avoided, especially if Hamas had kept their end of the bargain when they signed the peace treaty. All Israel wants is to live in peace, but what do you expect them to do? Sit back and take it on the chin and not protect their people against the cowardly onslaught by the Palestinians? I'm sorry, but Hamas is excellent at portraying themselves as victims and they are not above using their own people to get what they want. 5 Israelis dead. 541 Palestinians dead (75 of them children). That doesn't sound like a peaceful scenario. Maybe Israel doesn't like journalists in because they report on issues that don't portray Israel's actions in a positive light. Maybe Israel's actions in this aren't positive at all? I certainly understand the position that journalists can be partisan in their approach, but maybe the overwhelming majority of Palestinians dead, the denial of Israel in the Palestinian right to exist as an independent nation, the blockading of ships carrying food and medical supplies (due to the power deferential) and under the guise that the ships MAY be carrying weapons (which could easily be negotiated through asking the UN to monitor the ships) leads me to conclude that Israel says one thing, but actually, is doing quite another thing entirely. |
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 6, 2009 19:54:30 GMT 12
The reason Israel are not letting journalists access now is because the media broadcasts information that the Palestinians use against them. This has always been done in the past, now Israel is doing the opposite so that Hamas are kept in the dark and cannot act upon such info. I agree Sparrow, nobody wins in a war, there are always casualties and horrors which could have been avoided, especially if Hamas had kept their end of the bargain when they signed the peace treaty. All Israel wants is to live in peace, but what do you expect them to do? Sit back and take it on the chin and not protect their people against the cowardly onslaught by the Palestinians? I'm sorry, but Hamas is excellent at portraying themselves as victims and they are not above using their own people to get what they want. You appear to be channelling the Israeli government's P.R. department. I'd rather see original thought than a string of slogans dressed as an argument. |
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Post by bingbong on Jan 9, 2009 1:19:30 GMT 12
I don't believe Cailz's comments reflect at all any "channelling the Israeli government's P.R. department. " at all. I find Cailz's comments reasonable and sensible. Humas clearly are still firing rockets into Israel despite the self defence response from Israel hardly a deescatlating the situation and now Lebanon firing rockets into Israel what does one do, sit back and a recieves these "gifts."
I sense a inbuilt bias against Israel in many of the postings. Perhaps any bias inbuilt or other wise and i like reading this posting that i post here that appears salient of the matters to me .
"Try to imagine sitting in a bomb shelter, shaking with terror, day after day, year after year. No, try to imagine having to run to get to that shelter; once the siren screams, you’ll have only one minute before the rocket will strike. Imagine that you’re elderly or disabled, imagine that you’re diabetic but have forgotten your insulin, imagine that your children are freaking out or that you can’t find them.
Imagine that you’re faced with a version of (the very fictional) Sophie’s Choice: Do you seek shelter yourself or do you keep looking for your children? Do you give up your job, keep your children at home and out of school? Do you scatter them among your relatives elsewhere in the country? How does a person resign herself to not being in control of ordinary life “for the duration?”
This has been the reality, year in, year out, for Israeli civilians who live in Sderot, and it is now the reality for those living in Ashkelon and Ber-Sheva. The media has not covered this: Not enough blood, too little death, the photo opportunities are not…sexy. Thus, the world did not open its heart to this nerve-wracking, soul-deadening suffering, only a handful of protests were ever held, international pressure never built, the UN presided over no urgent meetings.
And now, this utterly demoralizing reality, together with the grim fact that kidnapped Israeli soldier, Gilad Shalit, is still missing–well, it all does not seem to “count” as much as does a photograph of one dead Palestinian child–one of Hamas’s smaller human shields. You can see her right there, on the front page of yesterday’s New York Times. Hamas is not blamed for putting her in harm’s way purely for propaganda purposes. Israel is blamed for daring to finally try to put a stop to the endless barrage of artillery aimed at its civilian citizens by exterminationists. Still, it is a terrible image.
Funny, there are no frontpage photos of the three month old Israeli infant who has just been “lightly wounded” by Hamas rocketry in Gadera.
How can we capture Israeli suffering in a single photograph –assuming the world wanted to see it? In this instance, a few words might be worth a thousand pictures."
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naki
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Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 9, 2009 4:12:49 GMT 12
Seems to me that you are confirming the truth that Hamas' home-made rockets are somewhat ineffective. Not enough blood, too little death, the photo opportunities are not…sexy. The BBC breathlessly covered one of these 'rocket attacks' last week...the projectile hit the ground harmlessly leaving a small trench that a child could dig on the beach in a few minutes.
Youer prose is very dramatic and breathless bingbong, but the facts make it look rather silly.
Gilad Shalit is a political prisoner....the only one known to be held by Palestinians. By contrast, Israel has held over ten thousand under similar circumstances.
It's easy to dismiss the children killed by Israeli fire as 'human shields', to shift blame for their murder from the murderer to the victim. How dare these Palestinian terrorists live in their own homes, with their own families? I have two kids of my own - If a truck were to plough through my front wall and kill them, and I survived, would you accuse me of using them as human shields?
There is a great deal of heartless and fatuous propaganda set forth to try and justify the facts in this case. It's pathetic to watch people wring their hands and wail about every single firework lobbed over the fence by hamas, only to close their eyes and their hearts while Israel carpet bombs Gaza settlements. I'm tired of the stupid excuses for killing children. Are the children of Jewish settlers referred to as 'human shields', expendable and excusable targets in the war on land thieves? Are the Jewish families who occupy land previously forcibly cleared of Palestinians terrorists hiding among the civilian population? I don't think so.
To forcibly herd arabs and muslims out of their homelands and hand it to strangers is wrong. To then turn the area in which they settle into a blockaded ghetto, controlling their food and medical assistance is wrong. To deny the rest of the world access to witness and judge for themselves is wrong.
But to blame families for the murder of their own children by Israeli troops............
that's just contemptible.
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Post by bingbong on Jan 9, 2009 11:42:39 GMT 12
Well Naki read over your blither [ it gave me a serious case of the yawnies! ] as there is no sense in nonsense.
I prefer to go back to the book I am reading by the woman who is the founder of the organization Arabs for Israel. Her name is Nonie Darwish, certainly makes sence the books title "Cruel and Usual Punishment. The Terrifying Global Implications of Sharia Law". Darwish documents the history and nature of Sharia law which is invariably mis-represented and mis-understood, both by its followers and by “infidels.”
This is why I like this message board and your particular posting It is helpful to see where there is possible damage. I don't know what is inside your head and would have to get in there to find that out but just like dangerous neighbourhoods I wouldn't go in there alone. I will stay with the people who support Israel and Arabs who do and the healthy Palestinians who are trapped by the nightmare of the vile rein of terror day in and day out perpetuated by Humas.
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Post by sparrow on Jan 9, 2009 14:16:14 GMT 12
Israel has a rather conflicted relationship with the UN. On the one hand the UN helped create the nation-state of Israel (against the wishes of Great Britain) and on the other hand, Israel pretty much ignores the wishes of the UN. Israel is opposed to outside influence - unless it is US driven. They're not interested in having peace-keepers in the Gaza strip or media. Israel didn't ask the permission of the UN to become a nuclear country and when it came to light that they had nuclear weapons, they went into a state of denial. In my view, they can't have it both ways and ask for the UN's condemnation of the actions of Hamas, while ignoring all requests by the UN for involvement.
Israel is beyond the bounds of most other countries in that sanctions don't really work with them. Their economy is "protected" by way of guaranteed markets into Europe (as part of WW2 reparations) and also compensation that countries such as Germany, still pay to them.
I have no problem with countries (and people) defending themselves, but couched within the notion of self-defense is a "limit" as to when one becomes the attacker and not the defender.
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Post by terauparaha on Jan 9, 2009 19:03:15 GMT 12
I'm with you naki
Good on ya
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naki
Full Member
Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Jan 9, 2009 20:06:35 GMT 12
.....I don't know what is inside your head ...... You choose not to. Israel is committing crimes against humanity. Until you stop blocking that concept, you cannot effectively debate it. |
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