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Post by kokonutwoman on Feb 11, 2009 5:47:56 GMT 12
Haka in $300m Treaty deal
TRACY WATKINS - The Dominion Post | Wednesday, 11 February 2009
The haka made famous by the All Blacks, Ka Mate, is poised to be recognised in an historic Treaty deal.
The Government will announce today a $300 million deal to settle three big Treaty claims and will break new ground by recognising the Ngati Toa tribe's authorship of the haka, and apologising for the Crown's treatment of its composer, Ngati Toa chief Te Rauparaha.
The deal will not give Ngati Toa right to veto use of the haka or the ability to claim royalties, but the Crown will acknowledge Ngati Toa's concern over the misappropriation and culturally inappropriate use of Ka Mate.
Ngati Toa has a long-standing grievance over widespread use of the haka without its permission, including for money-making purposes, and had sought to copyright it.
It will also be acknowledged that the detention in 1846 of Te Rauparaha without trial for 18 months breached the Treaty. Much of the tribe's lands were sold during his imprisonment.
The National Government and Treaty Settlements Minister Chris Finlayson have moved swiftly to keep up the pace of Treaty settlements since taking office and Prime Minister John Key will be at today's ceremony to mark their significance.
Together, the three settlements affecting big parts of the Wellington region and the top of the South Island are worth about $300 million, and settle claims by Kurahaupo Ki Te Waipounamu Trust from the top of the South Island, northern South Island tribe Tainui Taranaki ki te Tonga and Ngati Toa, whose tribal lands stretch from Rangitikei in the north and span Cook Strait.
The $300 million figure includes $171 million in direct redress from the Crown and about $128 million in Crown forest rentals and emission credits.
The Ngati Toa deal is understood to include $40 million cash, less the market value of any commercial properties transferred on settlement, $10 million recognising the Crown's actions in undermining the maritime authority exercised by Ngati Toa over Cook Strait in the 1800s, and first right of refusal on Crown properties for the next 169 years.
WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?:
Tribal leaders and the Crown will sign letters of agreement today. They will now work on a detailed deed of settlement for a final vote by the tribe on whether to accept the Crown's offer.
NGATI TOA:
Today's deal is worth $120 million to Ngati Toa, whose tribal area spans the lower North Island from Rangitikei in the north, the Kapiti Coast, Hutt Valley and Wellington areas and large areas of the Marlborough Sounds as well as much of the northern South Island. About $75 million of that is redress from the Crown, while about $45 million comes from Crown forest rentals and emissions credits.
Kapiti Island reserves will be vested in Ngati Toa, but gifted back for the benefit of all New Zealanders. In return, the tribe receives land on which to build a visitor centre.
Other sites to be vested in Ngati Toa, with public access rights, at places including Mana Island, Queen Charlotte Forest, Whitireia Park, Island Bay and elsewhere, totalling 21 hectares.
Money for a building to store and display Ngati Toa taonga and $1.5 million to buy three vacant schools in the Wellington area.
Gifting of Crown commercial properties up to a value of $10 million, and the right to buy others.
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Post by sparrow on Feb 11, 2009 8:20:40 GMT 12
This will be interesting ...
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naki
Full Member
Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Feb 11, 2009 8:42:46 GMT 12
Another claim settled, another chapter closed. I'll be glad to see the end of this process. It's good that some people can get rich off the misfortunes of their ancestors, but sooner or later, people are going to run out of ideas on how to exploit the rest of us. My family was decimated by the Germans in World War 2. No amount of money will change that fact, nor can I guarrantee that I would have been better off had it not happened. Life is like a card game. You get dealt your cards, and you play them as best you can. I'll be glad when spineless politicians stop frittering my tax dollars on people who demand the cards that their grandparents should have been dealt.
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Post by sparrow on Feb 11, 2009 9:14:15 GMT 12
I pay tax too, Naki and as such ... I have helped compensate myself. My ancestors also died fighting Germans in WW2. Many remain overseas in unmarked graves.
I fully support the Treaty settlement process. It is our truth and reconciliation process. It is less than 1% of what Maori could claim in settlements - guaranteed under the Treaty to them. What cost is justice?
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Post by Lux on Feb 11, 2009 9:48:16 GMT 12
Copywrite is the way to go I think regarding Taonga such as Haka, Waiata, Art etc... Just because its of Maori origin doesn't mean any tom dick or harry can exploit it...has been happening forever and a day. Its about time it stopped.
Naki thats a very simplistic way to look at the situation and one which idealistically makes sense.
But it won't happen that way for the simple fact that Maori have a intricate link to the land, there are grounds to air grievances and grounds for redress. It's just something that has to happen to
keep moving forward. Yes there are individuals getting rich off the treaty settlements and they're not all Maori either. The bureaucracy surrounding the claims and the time taken by Governments and officials to get the whole thing moving...inch by inch...year by year...is probably where the main cost to the tax payer comes in. The settlements themselves are scrapings off the bottom of the barrel. So not so much spineless pollies but sharks out to make a killing where-ever possible.
You never see or hear about the work being done by Iwi all over the Country, in Education, in Health, in Business to better the lot of many. You only hear about the mongrel mob, the baby abusers, the P addicts and most definitely the shady dealings of Maori from a Pakeha perspective of course. There is still a very strong undercurrent of racism against Maori in this Country and it is so normal most people can't even see it.
It is so funny how Maori have to defend our every move whatever we do and yet this Country like many others is going bust because of greedy deceitful business psychopaths who couldn't give a fark about anyone else but themselves. Stuff the next generation, stuff the earth...just gimme gimme gimme or I'll take it anyway under the guise of a healthy business deal...bordering on fraud but comfortably within the loop holes of current law.
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 11, 2009 10:36:20 GMT 12
Another claim settled, another chapter closed. I'll be glad to see the end of this process. It's good that some people can get rich off the misfortunes of their ancestors, but sooner or later, people are going to run out of ideas on how to exploit the rest of us. My family was decimated by the Germans in World War 2. No amount of money will change that fact, nor can I guarrantee that I would have been better off had it not happened. Life is like a card game. You get dealt your cards, and you play them as best you can. I'll be glad when spineless politicians stop frittering my tax dollars on people who demand the cards that their grandparents should have been dealt. So you want today's politicians to get spines and be just like the first politicians from 1840 and after regards Maoridom? That's what you're saying isn't it? LOL |
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 11, 2009 10:39:36 GMT 12
Copywrite is the way to go I think regarding Taonga such as Haka, Waiata, Art etc... Just because its of Maori origin doesn't mean any tom dick or harry can exploit it...has been happening forever and a day. Its about time it stopped. Naki thats a very simplistic way to look at the situation and one which idealistically makes sense. But it won't happen that way for the simple fact that Maori have a intricate link to the land, there are grounds to air grievances and grounds for redress. It's just something that has to happen to keep moving forward. Yes there are individuals getting rich off the treaty settlements and they're not all Maori either. The bureaucracy surrounding the claims and the time taken by Governments and officials to get the whole thing moving...inch by inch...year by year...is probably where the main cost to the tax payer comes in. The settlements themselves are scrapings off the bottom of the barrel. So not so much spineless pollies but sharks out to make a killing where-ever possible. You never see or hear about the work being done by Iwi all over the Country, in Education, in Health, in Business to better the lot of many. You only hear about the mongrel mob, the baby abusers, the P addicts and most definitely the shady dealings of Maori from a Pakeha perspective of course. There is still a very strong undercurrent of racism against Maori in this Country and it is so normal most people can't even see it. It is so funny how Maori have to defend our every move whatever we do and yet this Country like many others is going bust because of greedy deceitful business psychopaths who couldn't give a fark about anyone else but themselves. Stuff the next generation, stuff the earth...just gimme gimme gimme or I'll take it anyway under the guise of a healthy business deal...bordering on fraud but comfortably within the loop holes of current law. hear hear Don't forget too that Maori representatives are expected to make a speech on television saying sorry every time a Maori commits a murder, even though the same people who make these demands don't expect the Queen of England to make a speech every time a British descendant kills someone. |
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 11, 2009 10:41:55 GMT 12
I pay tax too, Naki and as such ... I have helped compensate myself. My ancestors also died fighting Germans in WW2. Many remain overseas in unmarked graves. I fully support the Treaty settlement process. It is our truth and reconciliation process. It is less than 1% of what Maori could claim in settlements - guaranteed under the Treaty to them. What cost is justice? No I don't believe you here sparrow. Only Pakeha died in the world wars and only Pakeha pay taxes because all Maori are on the dole you see. |
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naki
Full Member
Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Feb 11, 2009 16:09:16 GMT 12
you really need someone to look at that chip on your shoulder,bro.
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 11, 2009 17:19:22 GMT 12
you really need someone to look at that chip on your shoulder,bro. No argument bro? It is you who seems much more concerned (chip on shoulder) about this subject than me. Think about it bro. You're the one upset. I should have a chip on my shoulder considering the fact that only 1% of what is really owed to NZ Iwi is actually paid out to them, but I'm an easy going fella. cheers |
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Post by cailz on Feb 11, 2009 20:20:39 GMT 12
You never see or hear about the work being done by Iwi all over the Country, in Education, in Health, in Business to better the lot of many. You only hear about the mongrel mob, the baby abusers, the P addicts and most definitely the shady dealings of Maori from a Pakeha perspective of course. There is still a very strong undercurrent of racism against Maori in this Country and it is so normal most people can't even see it. It is so funny how Maori have to defend our every move whatever we do and yet this Country like many others is going bust because of greedy deceitful business psychopaths who couldn't give a fark about anyone else but themselves. Stuff the next generation, stuff the earth...just gimme gimme gimme or I'll take it anyway under the guise of a healthy business deal...bordering on fraud but comfortably within the loop holes of current law. ----------------------------------------------------- I ABSOLUTELY agree with you Lux, that will always be the case re the media and sensationalising the bad in people. You simply cannot generalise about ANY people and I really wish mostly everybody would stop doing that. There is so much good in the hearts of most people, but you will get the bad eggs who are Sociopaths (pc term used to describe them today, not Psychopaths as we've known them to be) and will use and abuse anybody to get what they want. I truly believe we have Sociopaths in Parliament, how else can they function?  ? They have no conscience, how else can they put their heads on their pillows and actually sleep at night? ?? It's seems racisism and bigotry is everywhere these days, against mostly everybody. Nobody is immune to those arrows of insolence and bile. It is frightening to see how angry and vengeful humankind can be against their own. Animals are kinder to their offspring. I am speechless at some of the vitriol I see displayed to members of their human race at times on the message boards as a whole. It makes me terribly sad when I think how our children have to face the future we are marking for them with our footprints.....the road they still have to travel? What examples are we? They don't stand a chance, unless we change.  |
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Post by Lux on Feb 11, 2009 22:06:41 GMT 12
I don't think TR has a chip on his shoulder concerning these things, I think he's pointing out the ironies in his usual tactless ;D way...Am I right TR?  |
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 11, 2009 23:16:32 GMT 12
I don't think TR has a chip on his shoulder concerning these things, I think he's pointing out the ironies in his usual tactless ;D way...Am I right TR? I thought I was being too nice Lux  At the end of the day, there has only been ONE person post in this thread who clearly has a problem with the topic of this thread and it is not me. I haven't a problem with this latest treaty claim. Someone else has and they have clearly demonstrated this in their posts. I just took the pi$$ and was laughing while doing it. That's not having a chip on the shoulder is it? Just for those among us here who would like to hear or read some heart felt comments regarding the day that Ngai Tahu was finally successful with their claim. At this time, I lived in Tuahiwi, the Home and Stronghold of Ngai Tahu Iwi and I can honestly tell you all that there were no big celebrations concerning the money that they were to get but all concerns and conversations that I was part of or witnessed were about the Fact that the Government had finally apologised for all of the mistreatments and renegging bestowed upon our very recent ancestors and it is very recent history that we're talking about here in the scheme of things. Now the ignorant among us can whinge all they like about the claiming and come out with all the usual anti Maori cliches they want (as long as it's not in my presence) but it isn't going to change the facts around the treaty issues. I'm going to clear up one cliche that gets up my nose. The one where people say that the treaty claiming is never ending, well if the whingers had ever listened properly from day one they would know that all the tribes have to have their claims addressed so at the present rate that they have been addressing the claims of course it's little wonder it's still going. All Iwi have not had their claims looked at yet so stop making out it's the same tribes claiming over and over when it's not. Yes Ngai Tahu and Tainui and some others may seem to come up with a new claim but it's just that that certain claim by them has been dealt with at a later date than their earlier more simple ones. It's not one claim per tribe you know. It's a claim for each major contract broken. I reiterate EACH CONTRACT BROKEN BY EITHER THE CROWN OR OUR EARLY GOVTS. Some Iwi have not had their claim looked at at all yet. I'm also going to add here that the reason the ka mate haka has been brought into this one like it has is for propaganda purposes by the media. The usual cock and bull to wind everyone up. Nothing solid has eventuated from the haka thing. They haven't been paid out for it's use and they haven't had it stopped from being used so what's the fuss? It's just another good wedge for the true separatists within our ranks to drive between Maori and Pakeha. |
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Post by kokonutwoman on Feb 12, 2009 0:27:35 GMT 12
As a PI born in this country I lay no claims on this land or its ancestral heritage, customs or protocols however I do respect them because my bones and my whole being belong to another land. I have fought along side Maori for their rights, in the past, present and no doubt in the future. I have cried with them and for them. In my opinion the all Treaty settlements are just.
The crimes committed against my ancestors and their land have been repaid with an "apology" some hundred years later. I guess that was all my people, who died during the Spanish Influenza Epidemic (almost a 1/4 of the population), was worth. New Zealand's administration back then was typical of British colonial view of "the natives" - expendable .
I have no problem with my taxes, paying NZ's historical debts.
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naki
Full Member
Posts: 233
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Post by naki on Feb 12, 2009 6:03:04 GMT 12
Clearly, terauparaha has major issues. If he's not brave enough to address them, I'll add no more reality to this thread.
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Post by maire on Feb 12, 2009 7:08:55 GMT 12
The only ones I see that have any "major issues" over land claims, are those who think they shouldn't happen.
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 12, 2009 11:04:38 GMT 12
Clearly, terauparaha has major issues. If he's not brave enough to address them, I'll add no more reality to this thread. Just try and not be closed minded about this naki and read and learn from some of the above posts. It will lift you up above many Kiwis who are happy being ignorant. cheers |
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Post by Lux on Feb 12, 2009 14:30:52 GMT 12
From my little book of Caribbean sayings:
'What de goat do, de kid follow'
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Post by Lux on Feb 12, 2009 14:42:34 GMT 12
I note this is being argued 'guess where' and the same conclusion really but it doesn't stop some rednecks from trying...and so what if there were royalties collected on its use? Why is it such an affront for some that Maori own things? You know how you get people saying oh well if they don't like it they can go back to wearing grass (flax) skirts...and blah blah...well can't move forward either - who do those Maori think they are wanting to stop their music and art from being stolen and exploited... who do they think they are using the LAW to lay claim to seek redress...who do we think we are? People with the same rights and responsibilities as anyone else in this Country thats who we think we are.
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Post by sparrow on Feb 12, 2009 16:13:06 GMT 12
$$$$Millions have been gleaned from Ka Mate. It is an icon. It's also a tribal haka and the NZRU can't own it. Believe me. They've tried to. This is where usage is mistakenly thought to constitute ownership and it is a shame that a compromise couldn't have been reached earlier. It also is indication of bad business practice in New Zealand where continued use and ideas about ownership have not been separated from emotion. Good business practitioners would have sorted this issue out long ago and come up with a solution. The NZRU and advertising agencies like Saatchi and Saatchi have had years (the better part of 100) to sort this out, and haven't.
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Post by terauparaha on Feb 12, 2009 17:53:39 GMT 12
You see far better haka than ka mate performed all the time, for me by high school rugby teams. For others closer to the Maori culture than me they would see better haka again.
Why couldn't they have promoted a much better haka than ka mate with some decent meaning in it? In fact why can't they do a range of haka?
I was impressed with that other haka the all blacks have done a couple of times. It included Pacific Island verses which is fine by me considering the fact that more than half the all blacks are pacific Islanders.
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Post by sparrow on Feb 12, 2009 18:04:15 GMT 12
Kapa o Pango ... I quite like that one too.
The ABs originally chose Ka Mate because it was short and the actions were basic. I once saw some of the old AB teams performing ka mate. It was atrocious. The Rugby Channel had put some disco music to it (You should be dancing by the Bee Gees). It was cringe inducing. Quite frankly after seeing that, I think Ngati Toa should go for compensation and abuse! Hahahaaa.
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Post by treeman on Feb 12, 2009 18:09:23 GMT 12
Agreed.
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Post by treeman on Feb 12, 2009 18:11:53 GMT 12
kapa o Panga is excellent but the powers that be (NZRFU) deemed it too graphic.
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Post by sparrow on Feb 12, 2009 19:59:08 GMT 12
kapa o Panga is excellent but the powers that be (NZRFU) deemed it too graphic. I think there was quite a bit of criticism re: the throat slitting gesture from overseas. They've kept most of the haka, but do the cutting action further down on the body now. |
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