Boys will be Boys won't they?

[sparrow]

Dun Mihaka - now there's a blast from the past.

[terauparaha]

treeman


I'd like to know where you got your information from that the Elders are supposedly ashamed of Tame Iti. Where did you get it from treeman?

I knew that a certain faction within Maoridom wanted separate sovereignty (laws) from the present Pakeha set up which clearly hasn't worked for Maori but I didn't think they'd succeeded already. The fact that studies prove that a Maori gets a more severe penalty for the same offence as a Pakeha kind of kills your statement that Maori get away with things that Pakeha don't.


Your bias against Maoridom treeman really does shed light on NZ's police-Maori relations. You being an ex-cop and all. It's no wonder many Maori get pi$$ed off with the system and alienate themselves from it.

Doer is also an ex-cop and could be your internet twin and I mean twin in all regards.

[treeman]

Please show FACTS that maori are treated more severely in court than pakeha

[sparrow]

Feb 3, 2009 12:12:52 GMT 12 @treeman said:

Please show FACTS that maori are treated more severely in court than pakeha

You are kidding right? Here's a little something for you:

www.howardleague.co.nz/factsheets/8.pdf

There are references in that document - if you are so inclined to do some research yourself.

If you don't like that, please find anything by Graham or Kathy Dunstall, not to mention Spoonley et al and the many, and various lawyers (Joe Williams, Peter Williams, Gibson etc) working in the field. You should be able to locate the FACTS i.e. statistics out of the official yearbook from each year, Statistics NZ, Ministry of Justice and this over-representation is historical, not new.

If you want to get "technical" on showing inherent bias: the fact that Maori are three times more likely to come to Police attention, be arrested and charged is evidence of the inherent bias toward Maori in the criminal justice system.

[sparrow]

Here's another link. This one is written by the Police about Maori youth offending and the issues of bias raised:

www.police.govt.nz/events/2005/ngakia-kia-puawai/becroft-on-maori-youth-offending.html

[terauparaha]

This guy was a cop sparrow.

What chance has NZ got?

[treeman]

Maori get exactly the same treatment as any other offender. The fact that more maori are prosecuted is that stats show they commit more crime.

[terauparaha]

Too many words in your links sparrow. He asked for proof and then ignored your links. How's that? I see he's started with his sleaze too. Took one day.

[sparrow]

Feb 3, 2009 13:14:26 GMT 12 @treeman said:

Maori get exactly the same treatment as any other offender. The fact that more maori are prosecuted is that stats show they commit more crime.

Rubbish. That's like an idiot fallacy ... because, because, because.

Maori come to Police attention and before the Courts because there is an inherent bias, where Police are more likely to use punitive measures to "punish" Maori offenders for small infringements that they would let slide if the offender was a different colour. This, in turn and as your comment reveals, plays into the stereotype that Maori commit more crime which continues the cycle of inherent Police bias toward Maori.

That's what the stats read out as and it's the reason why the Police are writing the article trying to address the issue of "bias". It's all there to see and unfortunately, the Police do themselves no favours by acting draconian in the raids on the "terrorists", but have failed to exhibit the same level of motivation in focusing on Chapman.

If, as TR says, you were a Policeman, you've just revealed how inherently biased Police are toward Maori in your attitudes.

[treeman]

I merely passed on a text message.
Nobody forces maori to commit crime. That sad fact is, they are not very good at it and get caught. BUT they get the same treatment by the courts as anybody else. WHICH IS ALL I WAS SAYING

[terauparaha]

Don't forget police gang rape either. Easy to see why it happens too.

[herodotus]

nobody forces anybody to come on here and spout their bile and bullsh*t either but it seems the gumboil suckers from the cesspit just cant stay away from anything decent
they just want to spoil and defile good things so there is no reflection for their own grubby behaviour

[sparrow]

Feb 3, 2009 13:26:59 GMT 12 @treeman said:

I merely passed on a text message.
Nobody forces maori to commit crime. That sad fact is, they are not very good at it and get caught. BUT they get the same treatment by the courts as anybody else. WHICH IS ALL I WAS SAYING

Not true. Maori get less benefit of the doubt because there's an inherent bias toward Maori in the Police. The Courts then apply similar treatment and quite often show bias toward Maori and youth offending too. Judges in New Zealand quite often like to play "social commentator" which is a role beyond their jurisdiction.

The sad fact, treeman is that all above is evidence on an inherent institutional bias toward Maori. I guess as the populations "even out" between Maori and non-Maori, non-Maori should live in hope that Maori will treat them with the same care, and protection Maori have been afforded. ;D

[treeman]

Have you ever donned the uniform sparrow? Well until you do the job i dont think you have the right to pass judgement on me or any other cop for that matter. I left the force over ten years ago so teraupraha need not worry about me.
I went into the job looking for the good in people and thinking i could make a difference.
It took less than a year to realise it was the same offenders time and again. Ask yourself who is responsible.

[sparrow]

Oh for goodness sake: the experential argument, treeman? Good heavens. One could argue, using your experential reference point, that since you are not Maori you cannot comment on anything Maori, or being a woman, etc, etc, and so forth. Experential points of reference are limited forms of argument and are used as ways to shut down matters that people are uncomfortable with.

Your "insight" into repeat offenders follows the Jukes (or Jjanes - I always get the names mixed up) about criminology and families.

I have never donned the Police uniform because I had no interest in belonging to that institution. There's a very good book out that traces some of the Police and Government thinking about Maori historically, where arguments are made that that underlying institutional philosophy is evident today.

[terauparaha]

I live near Timaru and the clear majority of offenders here are Pakeha and whenever I drive past KFC or go in there the clear majority are Pakeha which contradicts what we're all led to believe.

it's where one lives that portrays which ethnic group makes up the majority in most stats.

There is also the point that almost all offenders have European genes including most Maori offenders so just which ethnicity is the bad blood?

[terauparaha]

Feb 3, 2009 13:43:09 GMT 12 @treeman said:

Have you ever donned the uniform sparrow? Well until you do the job i dont think you have the right to pass judgement on me or any other cop for that matter. I left the force over ten years ago so teraupraha need not worry about me.
I went into the job looking for the good in people and thinking i could make a difference.
It took less than a year to realise it was the same offenders time and again. Ask yourself who is responsible.

I realise you mean "who do you think the offenders are" But if you really want to know who or what is responsible for alot of Maori offending, I would have to go back as far as 200 years and it would be a very long post. However this would bore a person of your ilk silly treeman so I won't bother.

[treeman]

So in essence what you are saying is it is all the police and the pakehas fault.
Okay, lucky i am not a cop anymore, I will shoot down to blood bank and get them to take out my 7/8 pakeha blood and top up my maori blood.
But i warrant that wont be good enough for you guys either.

[sparrow]

Feb 3, 2009 14:55:45 GMT 12 @treeman said:

So in essence what you are saying is it is all the police and the pakehas fault.
Okay, lucky i am not a cop anymore, I will shoot down to blood bank and get them to take out my 7/8 pakeha blood and top up my maori blood.
But i warrant that wont be good enough for you guys either.

I don't know if you are referring to me or not, but the argument here is that Police actively select who they will or will not pursue criminal charges against. The fact that they appear willing to proceed against Maori offenders 3x more often than Pakeha evidences an inherent bias in the Police.

BTW: Why are you using biometric factions of blood?

[treeman]

Its piontless carrying on this discussion. The fact is police respond to all crime irrespective of who the culprits are.
You say they pick on maori, I know they prosecute based on evidence.

[toerag]

Very Interesting....

As for Dun Mihaka I remember that bum - I laughed being an anti royalist and the sign of the times it was appropriate.

Now if we are to talk about the pole-lease, response time and convictions I would like to ask what's with the variances in sentencing for same crime different ethnicity?

[sparrow]

Feb 3, 2009 17:12:12 GMT 12 @treeman said:

Its piontless carrying on this discussion. The fact is police respond to all crime irrespective of who the culprits are.
You say they pick on maori, I know they prosecute based on evidence.

Respond to crime irrespective of who the culprits are? You must have been out of the job for sometime now, treeman. The last time we were burgled the Police seemed more interested in looking at our tv (big screens were a bit of a novelty then) and watching the AB game that was playing on it.

Police seem to pick and choose who and what they'll respond to.

They are inherently biased toward Maori and will prosecute Maori on many things they'd let slide if the offender were white. The Police force is largely homosocial and I'm sure there would have been many and various discussions in your vicinity about Maori during your time there.

[treeman]

The police dont sentence the judge does. he makes his decision (or a jury does) on evidence presented.
It would appear that certain posters are suggesting police manufacture evidence and go looking for a maori to pin the crime to.

[treeman]

Well sparrow Thank you for your asessment of the NZ Police force.
The comps send an i car to a job, the police officers do not decide which job to attend.
So one would presume the next time you are burgled you wont bother calling the police.Perhaps the mongrel mob or black power will recover your stolen goods for you.

[sparrow]

Feb 3, 2009 18:03:16 GMT 12 @treeman said:

The police dont sentence the judge does. he makes his decision (or a jury does) on evidence presented.
It would appear that certain posters are suggesting police manufacture evidence and go looking for a maori to pin the crime to.

Yes, but the Police have a large influence on who gets presented to the judge do they not?

As for your second sentence ... not at all. They don't need to manufacture. They just don't give warnings or benefits of the doubt or just let something slide with a "cut it out" if the individual is Maori. That's quite clear. Then Police and in your instance, ex-Police, say more Maori are committing crimes which is why Maori are over-represented in crime stats. The flipside to that argument is that Pakeha are under-represented - not because they're not committing crime, but because they get the benefit of the doubt.

Many crime theorists argue that the Police find crime where they seek it. If the assumption (as you, yourself stated above) is that Maori commit more crime, then the Police will make that a self-fulfilling prophesy.